Curse

Link1228 · Feb 11, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Looking through the classes, actual types of abilities are pretty much all taken (other than weak effects over a huge area or lots of maintain spells or both, which someone else should probably give a shot at if it hasn't been suggested already.) Taking this into consideration, the Rogue class is a bit different.

Instead of having its own set of skills, when making your class you pick two normal attributes and a primary attribute from any other class (so for instance, Swordsmansip, Healing Prayers, and Energy Storage.) These first three cannot be changed. When normally a secondary profession is selected, instead you get to pick an additional two attributes to add (the difference is that these last two can be changed by a profession changer.)

Rogues' armor, Health and Energy would probably be equivalent to Rangers (100 health +20 per level, 25 Energy with +3 energy regeneration and 70 max armor.) The runes and helmets would be set to the person's 3 originally selected attributes, meaning there would be 3 helmets of each armor set and 3 corresponding runes. The first and second would be the original two unchangeable attributes, and the third would be the primary skill.

Balance-wise, I believe it should be fine. Since any attributes really have to have attribute points in them to be of any real use and Rogue would have no more attribute points than normal, any versatility is balanced by lack of power in any one area (for instance, a Rogue putting points into Swordsmanship, Healing Prayers and Fire Magic will not be better than a Warrior, Monk or Elementalist, respectively, because of lack of armor for Swordsmanship and lack of Energy for the others, unless points are put into Energy Storage, which would further decrease the power of any of the attributes.) Also, while it can be more diverse than any other class, it does not have the stats of the class no matter its skills. For instance, it will never have the armor of a Warrior or Paragon, and it will always be 5 Energy and 1 Energy regeneration short of mage classes, it will have 25 Health less than a Dervish...etc. Thusly, it can never really be as powerful in any given thing as the class it came from, even while it can handle varying skill sets. On top of this, the Rogues can only get bonuses to the original 3 skills, as compared to most other classes' 4 or 5. While those 3 may be varied as much as Swordsmanship, Healing Prayers and Energy Storage, the Rogue really does not have the option of using hammers or axes, and would have difficulty with the other 2 Monk skills, and cannot use runes to modify any Elementalist magic.

Story-wise, I believe it should be a Prophecies class. The Shing Jea Monastery, where Factions starts, seperates students by class as I recall, and the PCs in Nightfall are part of the Sunspears, which seems to be a very structured organization. Ascalon seems to be something of a land of oppurtunity, and it also seems a little less organized and more lenient. Ascalon seems like the place you'd have heroes who come from the boondocks with just any random skills that worked instead of a class of the normal sort, but that's just personal opinion. I believe it could fit into any of the three, since the Prophecies and Factions characters can get inducted into the Sunspears with whatever class they have, and the Shing Jea Monastery accepts any skilled person into its halls, so I believe it would fit either Factions or Nightfall as well. It just seems to fit Prophecies better, especially since Prophecies has no special class.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea? Please stray from commentry like "nice idea," "I wish this existed but it can't work," etc, though if you believe the latter I'd like to know why, since if there is something seriously wrong with the class, it needs to be fixed (or worse, abandoned.) Mostly what I'd like is to answer the question, "if you were a Rogue, how would you exploit this class?" Any feedback is much appreciated, as it can help me shape this into a better-working class more likely to be in the game.

kunta · Feb 11, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Good idea man, But I think they should have there own skill sets no a pick able one. Which brings up what would they use as weapons? Every thing I personally can think of is used up unless they brought out the charr with them makeing guns O.o

Link1228 · Feb 11, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

The point is that they don't have their own, they make use of every else's (including weapons, so what weapon you use depends on the particular Rogue.) If they had their own, it would probably be cross-class Elite skills, which would probably come with the inability to use the normal Elite skills. Though this would mean 50 additional skills, which might be difficult to balance correctly (on top of making them in the first place.)

Phoenix Tears · Feb 12, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

would be insanely unbalanced >.> this concept
saying this, this CC result simple in an assasine wannabe, when you can just pick then attributes of anythign you want -.-

imo stupid concept for a rogue.

A rogue should have his own attributes, like all other professions too.
a simple rogue concept for GW would look like.

Agility (P) > improves movement/attack speed and block chance per point into this rank and also the usage times of physical skills (like fast casting reduces CT of magic spells)

Thievery Lessons > Disarming/interruption skills, for heavy melee interrupt builds, like rangers, but just for melee, but also physical conditions skilsl, which cause daze, weakness, bleeding, blinding, cracked armor

Thug Tongue > Party Supportive Skills and Self Heal Skills
Stealth > Defensive Skills
Dagger Mastery > Attack Skills

*normally the Assasin would fight with Katars, Shurikens and Kunais, not Daggers - yes Kunais are Daggers, but smaller light Throwing Daggers.
Their origins are still the japanese Ninja, so Assassins should also act more like that >.>, but anet is so or so only ful of wannabe professions - very sad, but thats due to the 2 class-system, such systems can only produce wannabes >.<

Your CC rogue will have then skills of more then 2 professions in one, also meaning to have elite skils of more than 2 professions, alone this makes your CC unbalanced, because all other professions would be limitated to just elite skills of 2 professions, while the rogue has 3 and the free choice to choose, whatever 3 you want.

Your theory about wannabes being not more powerful, then their clone vice versas is a fail...
The best example will be ever the Ranger/Ritualist - Ritualist/Ranger -Build.

Splitter Barrage ... both characters... share the same build, but due to attribute differences due to the fact, that charactters CAN'T use runes of their momentanous chosen secondary class... Ritualist/Rangers will be EVER stronger splitter barragers, then Ranger/Ritualists, even the nerf of splinter weapon changed nothing on that fact, because only the overall damage output of the combination got reduced, but this damage reduce naturally share both profession combinations.

The Ritualist/Ranger will not be only in advantage over the Ranger/Ritualist due to more damage output, but also due to more max energy and 1 more energy regeneration, the Ritualist/Ranger can spam the deadly barrages much longer, before he runs out of energy, than a Ranger/Ritualist rull very quick out of energy, after some barrages, as long no bip necro supports him...

Unless this rune issues gets not finally fixed, makign it possible to use also runes of your secondary class, there will exist ever strength differences between clone profession vice versas, which share both the same skill builds...one side will be ever more effective due to more max energy, better e reg or better damage output, and in worst case, like Rt/R .. in all 3 points ...

Link1228 · Feb 12, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

this, this CC result simple in an assasine wannabe, when you can just pick then attributes of anythign you want -.-

Okay. So how exactly does this end up as an assassin wannabe? There's nothing assassin in it. Assassin would probably not work well at all for my idea.

Quote:

imo stupid concept for a rogue

What a Rogue is is implied in their name: rogue. If they have any truly definable traits other than that, they're not really very rogue. Therefore if they "have their own attributes, like all the other professions too," what are they going rogue from?

Kunai were mainly only thrown out of desperation. Spades aren't made for throwing, generally, and in actuallity kunai were the Japanese equivalent of a spade.

And yes, they would have choice of 3 elite skills. Except they could only have 1, just like everybody else. I don't see that as overpowered.

And the bit about R/Rt and Rt/R...I don't have Factions, so I'm not sure exactly what all the specifics were, but I understand the concept. Actually that was part of what balances my idea of a Rogue, since it has less attributes it can use runes on, and because it doesn't have the MP or armor rating matching the class that normally uses the skill, so it isn't likely to be able to do anything as well. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, which is likely because the example is lost on me, mostly.

Lastly...lighten up. Seriously, you're getting angry because I happen to think differently about a class in a game. Take that into perspective. Getting angry in situtations like this isn't healthy, I can say this from experience.

Phoenix Tears · Feb 12, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

it is overpowered, because you could build with this concept the ultimate character -.-

Imagine a Rogue with Fast Casting, Healing Prayers, Fire Magic, Domination Magic and Inspiration Magic = ultimate caster class rogue >.>

than imagine an Critical Hits, Markmanship, Channeling Magic, Restoration Magic and Twilight Magic, making the rogue to a perfect triple synergy of sins, rangers and ritualists = ultimate ranged class with uber critical spike shots and no energy problems

by beign able to just pick attributes of "all other professions" you create NO unique profession, all you create is only the biggest wannabe of all, because that chara can than do theoretically everything of all classes, but looks absoliutely never like something u've chosen, due to not fitting armor, not fitting kind of movement or total failing in kind of acting.

Say.. beign able to chose 2 attributes and 1 elite of all possible professions + additional 2 of you secondary will end up only just in wannabes with full attributes of 1 professions..

say you make you now a Ro/A..

I pick me Critical hits as primary, deadly arts and dagger masetry, by choosing Assasin I get also Shadow Arts and boom, there I have my full assassin wannabe with all attributes like an assassone, but lookijg like a dumb rogue,..

ehh wait ..a Rogue with assassine Skills ya right, that must be a real Rogue >.>

your concept fails imo, because it makes absolutely no sense to implement into a game, which is based on professions, which have all their own Attribute Sets and come with these Attribute Sets also all with their own Strengths and Weaknesse a profession, which will be then able juts to play"Copy Cat"

because nothign else is your Rogue CC here, just a class, based fully on a Copy Cat functionality and that has nothing to do with a Rogue at all.

Rogues uses their own ability and don't steal abilities of others and copy them as if they would be mimes.

This functionality would be maybe only something for some new mesmer illusion and/or inspiration skills, inspired by mime technique, but it#s no funtionalitly, that fits in GW anyhow to a possible Rogue profession, because rogues simple don#t steal "skills"

rogues would be in GW able to disarm their enemies while fighting, or woudl be based on strogn melee interrupts, due to their very high agility, rogues would be something like Support Melee Characters or Support Back Line Characters, because rogues also fight with Bows (at least could need GW another profession imo, thta can fight with bows, other than only the ranger, somethign that has an other image, than the ranger and can act also more like a hybrid between ranged and melee fighting)

would be cooul have have playable rogues in GW2, when then we will have persistant worlds - it would be as very very awesome, when the player would be able to interact with the persistant world, for example with towns.. as rogue you try to sneak someone onto the full market place, in hope to steal there something then from some running and walking around NPC's (randomous steals, from money to items)

such kind of interaction with the game world is cool, such stuff you can do so often in offline rpg's.. such stuff of interaction with the game world i would love to see in GW2 with all its professions.

And naturally when you fail then at stealing npc's and you get caught, your character will land in JAIL *g*...but stop it with OT XD
---------------

however, as said, i find this concept not good

/notsigned from me

maybe overwork your concept to something, that looks more like a normal concept of a rogue, where you give him his own attributes, describe them, write some exmaple skills ect. pp..

to me this cc looks atm only more, as if you would be just too lazy to think of own attributes for a rogue, because you couldn't think of something, that lets your rogue concept look unique enough in your eyes, so you said to yourself.

just make a class, that can copy attributes from all others (and thereby will be nothing more in the end, than an Assassine wannabe by copied assassine attributes oO how originally ...)

No, with copy cat funtionality, we could make GW direct into a game, where all new players start as novices and work ten their ass of, until their characters have learned all skills from all professions and can use all skills of all professions without having to switch anything, like we have to do in GW, due to the 2 class system... with such a functionality we could just have a skill bar of say 12+ with multiple exchangeable skill bars, whihc cna be changed then iwth button press to have x* 12 skills per bar to have a huge load of skills from different professions then usable ..na sry.. thats the wrogn way

Link1228 · Feb 12, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Rogues don't get a secondary profession. There wouldn't be a Ro/A.

Quote:

to me this cc looks atm only more, as if you would be just too lazy to think of own attributes for a rogue, because you couldn't think of something

So...I throw out an idea for a class, for the sake of throwing out an idea for a class because I'm too lazy to think up one? If it was a case of laziness, wouldn't it be easier to just not throw out an idea at all?

Phoenix Tears · Feb 12, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Instead of having its own set of skills, when making your class you pick two normal attributes and a primary attribute from any other class (so for instance, Swordsmansip, Healing Prayers, and Energy Storage.) These first three cannot be changed. When normally a secondary profession is selected, instead you get to pick an additional two attributes to add (the difference is that these last two can be changed by a profession changer.)

There you say, that Rogues will be able to get 3 attributes from any of all existing professions - 2 normals and 1 primary.
Plus, they should receive additional 2 attributes from the secondary class, you choose, which will be naturally changeable by the NPC...

Quote:

Rogues don't get a secondary profession. There wouldn't be a Ro/A.

>.> see above... decide now XD
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When you wouldn't be lazy, you wouldn't make a Concept about a Copy Cat Profession..because a Copy Cat Class can think of every lazy noob with no clue about professions at all... like such dumb braindead trolls, which land every now and then here also in and post CC threads like:

"The Blah Blah Blup"

The Blah Blah Blup does this and that, has so much AL, xxx of HP, somewhat high of Energy and xx pips of E..

uhm it will be pretty much like a mesmer, prette myuch like an Elementalist and pretty much like my dumb brain, that can't think of unique professions XD and therfore fills up those dark black holes up there with pretty much assumptions of how this concept should look and work like a summary o some existing professions XD

PS: here an example, how your CC would look more like when you would not be lazy XD

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10117492

even a much better example
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10248341

Link1228 · Feb 12, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

I was confused on my last post. Between dealing with you and with some other people on another thread, I'm getting somewhat tired. Do you prowl these forums for any reason other than to berate people, or is this just a bad day for you?

Actually I was hoping I could balance it somehow so you could have a character with some semblance of versatility. The amount of specialization in GW characters annoys me greatly. I was trying to make something helpful. You've destructively criticized me for it. Sorry, I won't try to be helpful again, I was the one at fault. Excuse me for not realizing this forum would be populated with the kind of people in the game: snobbish, selfish, uncaring, and obsessed with putting other people down. You've made your point, don't even bother replying because I'm leaving this thread and shortly, this forum.

Damian Greenthumb · Feb 12, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Aside form all the Static and Mudslinging, Ive often missed my Rogue/Theif Chars. that Ive played in various settings for the past 20+ years. Yes, that would go back to DnD p&p Red Box Days. Its too bad this thread has incurred the wrath instead of more Creative/Constructive Critisism.
Sneak/Stab/PickPocket repeat

System_Crush · Feb 12, 2008, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Although lacking in clarification and delivery, I agree with what Phoenix said, at least the part tha I under stood of what I bothered to read of all that.

For 1 rogues would look like rogues, not like whatever attributes they chose and put together.
Just by combining 3 attributes I can make tons of completely different rogues, but they would all still wear rogue armor.
And as to not make a complete mockery of the well established identity of DnD rogues, that armor would be forced to resemble assassins in a way.
(even though the identity associated with the word rogue because of DnD is false)

As for the compiling of attributes without a penalty other than having a max of 5 attributes instead of 9 is a bad idea.
Everyone would just make rogues with soul reaping primary, Or getting superior channeling magic runes on a marksman rogue.
Or in PvP every non spell caster would be using expertise.
If they can take the primary of other classes without sacrificing the ability of using runes for their actual function there is no reason to still play other classes.

I agree if GW didn't have primaries then this idea would be balanced, but a free-basing system(Everyone has free access to all attributes an can combine them to build their own class) isn't something Anet was willing to replace the 2 profession system with(gw2wiki interview directory)

I see where you are going and would like to suggest a way of doing it while applying penalties to balance the use of multiple classes.
It revolves around the idea of disguises and would fit best in a profession that is like a spy

The profession would have a spy focused skill set, with some damage skills some poison skills and a limited number of can't be the target of X skills.
Asside from this they would have 'False Profession' skills, 1 for each other profession, and an elite 1 for each other profession.
A false profession skill gives you a like a third profession, while it is on your bar, like [skill=text]Charm Animal[/skill] you can get skills unlocked from another profession at the attribute level of half the level of the deception attribute.
But, whenever you use the false profession skill, all your attributes of your primary and secondary profession are reduced by 1 for 20 seconds and attributes in your third profession are increased by 2 for 20 seconds, this stacks until you have u points in your primary attribute.(can't have people with negative expertise or negative soul reaping, in case they have agent as their secondary profession)

The elite false profession skills, allow you to have points in the primary of the false profession, while the non false profession skills don't.
You could take 2 false professions and use skills form 4 classes.
Or you could take your secondary profession as a false profession, so you can raise your secondary attributes in in at the expense of your primary's attributes.

You sacrifice skills slots and attribute points, that way limiting the amount of skills you can have using more than 2 professions and the amount of skills you can raise above 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

even a much better example
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10248341

WHAT!!

Why are your reffering to my matriarch as a 1 line CC?!
I'll give you that the weapon is crap, but it beats every other constructor CC out there in lore and functionality.

Phoenix Tears · Feb 12, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

WHAT!!

Why are your reffering to my matriarch as a 1 line CC?!
I'll give you that the weapon is crap, but it beats every other constructor CC out there in lore and functionality.

Don't explode like a volcano XD, I reffered your CC there, for an example as GOOD CC thread, that does not look, like being made by a lazy person.
Would you have read only, why I posted those examples ^^ Ever read everything first

I know, even when my English isn't anymore the best, which it was once a tiem ago (god lets people forget stuff, they learned once in school, you know XD? I 'm only a German with poor School English *g* but I'll try to explain something again, when somebody wants me to do so, if you haven#t understood me, then i try to explain my thoughts with other words in an other way, that is then hopefully better understandable

)

@Link: lol ...get a stronger skin and don't be emo now, only because you got critizised.
That CC was unbalanced crap and you know it..there is a reason, why all other proffesion are not able, to have more than 2 professions >.>

Quote:

Sorry, I won't try to be helpful again, I was the one at fault

Roflmao, I'm very amused *g*... that sentences sounds, as if we would have all screamed here for help and as if we would have been waiting all the time for your help to post a concept of a Rogue XD

Lol, when you don't like the system of Guild Wars's professions, how they work, why do you play then Guild Wars, when you want to be albe to just create unbalanced ultimate Characters, which should be able to have all attributes and all skills of all professions in 1 single profession -.-
God ,really this CC looks under this impression even more like beign made by a 10 year old, which has played too much very old bad offline pc games a la Dungeon Siege ect. where your characters will be at the end "unbeatable" , beign able to use all skills playing the game in "God Mode"

When you really wanted to have constructive criticism, then you should have made a CC thread, such detailed and highly structured, like that example one of System Crush there...because only then will people receive a good impression on how your CC should really work and how the fuctionality should especially work of the CC.

By saying stuff like, that the rogue should be able to pick all attributes of all professions in some way of free choice just lets the whole CC look like a dumb Copy Cat profession , sorta like a silly Mime, other than a rogue.

Rogues steal very valuable items and money from their victims...not Skills and attributes of other professions... skill disabling and or stealing is still the job of the MESMER . Due to the fact, that this would be impossible and unfair using against other players, they need to have to play an other role, which would be only the supportive melee one, which disarms foes for certain times (which is the best possible alternative of stealing, beign able to strip off your enemies their weapons and armory) and also interrupting skills which disable skiull usage, steal from the enemy adrenaline and or energy.

Also, ..this is Guru...gettign flamed here is normal.. get a rough skin

just be happy, that no one posted yet kitty pictures rofl for the fail of this CC
Also my criticism was not destructive, it was constructive ...

I didn't said only, that your CC is crap, I told you, why it is crap and why it is unbalanced and then showed you a base model of a concept, how a rogue would look for example in GW...attribute wise...

a good base model, you could use to make out of it a better looking CC thread for a rogue, that doesn't end up as an assassine wannabe, as you extra have written in the title of the thread.

by writing such thigns into the title, isn't it then obvious, that readers of the thread try to find out, if the OP tells the truth ?

I personally could tell you with the first look at your CC, that your CC fails and that this (not being an assassine wannabe is just a lie), because the CC ends up very quick with assassine wannabes, when you can choose attributes of all other existing professions (oh wonder, who may thought this,m this means also includign assassins) and what do you really believe will people do with such copy cat professions ?

right, people will just try to create iunbeatable ultimate solo play characters with the best advantages of all professions and most less disadvantages.
You have absolutely no clue, how unbalanced it would be, to give the game a profession, that can use skills of more than 2 professions together, over the rest of the other professions.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 13, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

This is only possible if someone was to make a private server for GW.
But I totally would hate the person, Tainting GW XD!
Hopefully there well never be such.

A class, which can be all classes is wrong.
Were making people not dopplgangers^^!

System_Crush · Feb 14, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Don't explode like a volcano XD, I reffered your CC there, for an example as GOOD CC thread, that does not look, like being made by a lazy person.
Would you have read only, why I posted those examples ^^ Ever read everything first

I know, even when my English isn't anymore the best, which it was once a tiem ago (god lets people forget stuff, they learned once in school, you know XD? I 'm only a German with poor School English *g* but I'll try to explain something again, when somebody wants me to do so, if you haven#t understood me, then i try to explain my thoughts with other words in an other way, that is then hopefully better understandable

)

@Link: lol ...get a stronger skin and don't be emo now, only because you got critizised.
That CC was unbalanced crap and you know it..there is a reason, why all other proffesion are not able, to have more than 2 professions >.>

Oh I C I thought you where giving examples of 1 line CC's, cuz usually that is what you do when talking about the CC looking lazy.

**Marty Silverblade** · Feb 14, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Didn't have time to read all the responses, but from what I get from the OP, this would just turn out to be a sloppy compromise between classes, or stupidly overpowered. The concept of picking attributes and the like wouldn't really work with current GW design, and I don't see a need to change it as drastically as this. It can't become a Prophecies class, because that would require a fair bit of fixing up just for one profession (skill quests, etc). Also, by your reasoning, it can't be core, so It'd be Proph only. That's a bit awkward.